Re: Principles of Spam-abatement
Dean Anderson <dean@av8.com> Wed, 10 March 2004 11:26 UTC
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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 05:10:47 -0500
From: Dean Anderson <dean@av8.com>
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Subject: Re: Principles of Spam-abatement
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Joe Abley, you should be aware that your company is using a revenge list for spam blocking. You might want to consider using a different email address. But it makes an interesting end to this discussion, I think. ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- <jabley@isc.org> (reason: 553 Service unavailable; Client host [130.105.36.66] blocked using dnsbl.sorbs.net; Hijacked/Disused Netblock See: http://www.dnsbl.sorbs.net/cgi-bin/lookup?IP=130.105.36.66) The SORBS list falsely claims that our netblocks are hijacked. The falseness of this claim was communicated to Matthew Sullivan, the operator of SORBS, last June. Mr. Sullivan first denied responsibility for SORBS, and then said that 'he has no assets to lose, so we should go ahead and sue him or contribute to him'. He operated other sites that threatened mailbombing. (Mailbombing is basically spam by anti-spammers. Anti-spammers don't think of what they do as spamming--they call it mailbombing. But the recipients can't really tell the difference.). Mr. Sullivan was then booted from XO. Later, he found a home on ISC. As near as I can tell, the original source of these lies was Alan Brown, who operated ORBS until it was shutdown. Alan Brown has lost 3 separate lawsuits involving defamation and false statements. 2 of those lawsuits involved him making false statements about ISPs he simply didn't like, that is, he put them in his blacklist falsely, just like Mr. Sullivan is doing now. Most people aren't involved in three lawsuits their entire lives. Yet Mr. Brown has __lost__ three involving false statements. Does that make him a pathological liar? ISC (Paul Vixie, Bill Manning) has been aware of the abusive and defamatory nature of SORBS for some time now, but either don't seem to mind being associated with such disreputable people, and don't mind that their services are being used for unlawful and defamatory sites, or share in Mr. Sullivan's and Mr. Brown's spite. And what are we to make of Mr Sullivan's association with this, and Mr Vixie's and Mr. Manning's assocation with Mr. Sullivan? Shouldn't they be judged by their association with disreputable people? All rather interesting in light of the statements below by Vixie about trust and rogues, I think. On 3 Mar 2004, Paul Vixie wrote: > as i've said twice before on this thread in the past several days, i don't > care who you are but i do care who you know. if the world has its hooks > into you -- mutual trust, bond, or some combination -- then i will probably > consent to communication with you even if you remain anonymous behind some > kind of trust brokerage in finland. however, if you are completely rogue, > i will probably not give my consent to communicate with you. So says the person who doesn't have an AUP, doesn't accept abuse complaints, and hosts defamatory, abusive web sites that other responsible ISP's have booted. Without going into the causality constraints on giving consent, it is blatently hypocritical to talk about rogue behavior yet not act to prevent such rogue behavior in their own area of responsibility, or worse, actively participate in such rogue behavior. Someone once said that "slander is the revenge of an ignoble mind". It is hypocritical to talk about "trust", when the subsribers to anti-spam lists expect and __trust__ that those lists aren't being used for spiteful reasons having nothing whatsoever to do with spam. They __trust__ the list to be honest, and they generally stop using lists that are found to be dishonest. Yet, very few (if any) such lists are honest. Technical lists are replete with people posting questions seeking recommendations for "good" blacklists. Indeed, with the exception of ISC, 100% of the SORBS users we contacted stopped using SORBS after viewing the 130.105/16 entries or 198.3.136/21 entries. This type of thing has also been true of other lists, including MAPS, which was started by Vixie. For example, MAPS lost a suit to Exactis/Experian, after it blocked email in violation of its own criteria. A really interesting thing about the case is the email from MAPS that threatened Exactis not to resort to legal action, while hypocritically claiming on it's web site to be looking for legal challenges. MAPS actually told Exactis that if it even mentioned lawyers, MAPS would blacklist it until the case was over regardless of whether it complied with MAPS demands. Apparently MAPS had not heard of "Temporary Restraining Order" or perhaps hoped that Exactis hadn't. Or perhaps they believed the internet to be out of the reach of the law. MAPS lawyers were chastised in the case. While I've heard of many spammers losing various cases, I've yet to hear of their lawyers being chastised for frivolous disagreement. One cannot have a system where "rogue" is determined by the very people who act irresponsibly, or who act significantly at variance with social norms and obligations such as honesty and integrity, or regard for the law. I don't think this kind of hypocrisy can go unnoted because it is at the very core of the anti-spam systems based on trust. Some people basically want to appoint themselves judges of what is "rogue", and then use those systems to take revenge. In doing so, they deceive and mislead their subscribers, and genuinely harm the anti-spam cause. While it's human to make mistakes, and its even human to be hypocritical at moments, it is unacceptable to continue hypocrisy after it is has been pointed out--when that happens, very serious criticism and questions of credibility are quite properly in order. Such violations of trust on the part of Vixie, Manning, Sullivan, and Brown (and others) show very little respect for the anti-spam cause, and virtually no respect for their subscribers. If they were truly concerned about spam issues, they wouldn't allow their credibility to be compromised by obviously false statements motivated by nothing other than spite, or by association with disreputable people engaging in same. Either they are extremely irresponsible, or they don't think that spam is a very serious problem. Or perhaps they, too, are just pathological liars. If so, it is rather ironic that they should share this trait with so many "spammers" (though consider "mailbombing" again, and perhaps it isn't so odd). I said near the start of this discussion that one principle should be that we acknowledge that radical anti-spammers are making the problem worse, and deal with them. I think another principle should be that those entrusted with responsibility should be responsible, ethical, and accountable for every decision, and that disreputable people or associates of disreputable people should not be allowed to have control or influence in the decision making process regarding "trust". --Dean
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Tom Petch
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement John Leslie
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Dave Aronson
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement John Leslie
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Dave Aronson
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Tom Petch
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Paul Vixie
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Robert G. Brown
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement John Leslie
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement jfcm
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Michael Thomas
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Paul Vixie
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement John Leslie
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Michael Thomas
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement John Leslie
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Michael Thomas
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement John Leslie
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Dave Crocker
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement John Leslie
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement John Leslie
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Michael Thomas
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Paul Vixie
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Vernon Schryver
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Ed Gerck
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement grenville armitage
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Dr. Jeffrey Race
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Ed Gerck
- Race's BCP/blacklist Proposal (was Re: Principles… Nathaniel Borenstein
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement David Morris
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement John Leslie
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Paul Vixie
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Alan Barrett
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Robert G. Brown
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Robert G. Brown
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Dave Aronson
- e-Yentl Dave Aronson
- e-Yentl Michael Thomas
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Robert G. Brown
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Ed Gerck
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Robert G. Brown
- Re: Race's BCP/blacklist Proposal (was Re: Princi… Robert G. Brown
- Re: e-Yentl william(at)elan.net
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement David Morris
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Vernon Schryver
- Re: Race's BCP/blacklist Proposal (was Re: Princi… Dean Anderson
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement grenville armitage
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Ed Gerck
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Dean Anderson
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Joe Abley
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Nathaniel Borenstein
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Vernon Schryver
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement John C Klensin
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Nathaniel Borenstein
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Vernon Schryver
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement John Stracke
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Vernon Schryver
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Nathaniel Borenstein
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Vernon Schryver
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Alan Barrett
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Paul Vixie
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Yakov Shafranovich
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Nathaniel Borenstein
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Vernon Schryver
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Dean Anderson
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement (fwd) Dean Anderson
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Paul Vixie
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Dave Crocker
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Dave Crocker
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Paul Vixie
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Dr. Jeffrey Race
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement (fwd) Dean Anderson
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Yakov Shafranovich
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Dean Anderson
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement (fwd) Dr. Jeffrey Race
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Dean Anderson
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Yakov Shafranovich
- move to second stage, Re: Principles of Spam-abat… Ed Gerck
- Re: move to second stage, Re: Principles of Spam-… Einar Stefferud
- The right to refuse, was: Re: Principles of Spam-… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: move to second stage, Re: Principles of Spam-… Yakov Shafranovich
- Re: move to second stage, Re: Principles of Spam-… Yakov Shafranovich
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement (fwd) Dean Anderson
- Re: move to second stage, Re: Principles of Spam-… Ed Gerck
- Re: move to second stage, Re: Principles of Spam-… Yakov Shafranovich
- Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Apology Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Nathaniel Borenstein
- Re: Apology Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Dave Crocker
- Re: Apology Re: Principles of Spam-abatement Tom Lord
- Re: move to second stage, Re: Principles of Spam-… Ed Gerck
- Re: move to second stage, Re: Principles of Spam-… Yakov Shafranovich
- Re: move to second stage, Re: Principles of Spam-… Ed Gerck
- Re: move to second stage, Re: Principles of Spam-… Eric A. Hall
- Re: move to second stage, Re: Principles of Spam-… Dean Anderson