Why have we gotten away from running code?
"Brian Rosen" <br@brianrosen.net> Sat, 06 August 2005 23:08 UTC
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From: Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net>
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Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 19:07:19 -0400
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Subject: Why have we gotten away from running code?
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I notice that we have stopped being interested in running code. I think that is to our community's detriment. If two groups are arguing with one another, and one has implemented code and the other has not, I think we would give great weight to the running code. I don't see that happening. This happened in a session during this meeting where I was present. Running code was not considered significant in the discussion; it was not even mentioned as a criterion in deciding the issue. Probably more importantly, I think we should be VERY suspicious of new, complex specifications before we have running code. We are very clearly NOT doing this. We are willing to publish a proposed standard for an entirely new protocol that has very significant complexity, where there are people openly skeptical that it will work at all, with nothing but some sketchy simulations and a (admittedly well reviewed) draft. We are routinely publishing complex protocols and significant changes/additions without even simulations. Our rules permit us to do such things. We should rarely choose to. We don't know what we are getting into until we write code. We don't know how hard it is to implement, we don't know what works and what doesn't. Perhaps there are a large number of you out there that are able to claim reasonably complex things work based on reading a document and looking at simulations. I am not. My experience is that getting something to actually do what you want it to do is very illuminating. I wonder if we should change our bias towards bestowing Experimental status on drafts that ask to be published as RFCs without running code. Clearly, there are specifications where the complexity is low, and we have enough experience with the subject that we can be reasonably sure it works without running code. We should be able to bring such ideas out at Proposed Standard. Good judgment is always required to choose which side of a line a particular draft falls on. I assert we have pushed the line away from running code quite too far. We still do operate with rough consensus. We ought to return to having running code. Brian _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- Why have we gotten away from running code? Brian Rosen
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Bruce Lilly
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Scott W Brim
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? John Leslie
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Melinda Shore
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Jeroen Massar
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? grenville armitage
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Bill Fenner
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Melinda Shore
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Mark Baugher
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Scott W Brim
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Melinda Shore
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Scott W Brim
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? wayne
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Love Hörnquist Åstrand
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Marc Manthey
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Jari Arkko
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? C Wegrzyn
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? wayne
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Simon Josefsson
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Dave Singer
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Marc Manthey
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? C Wegrzyn
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Jari Arkko
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? C Wegrzyn
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Dave Singer
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Jeroen Massar
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? C Wegrzyn
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Bill Manning
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Bill Manning
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Ned Freed
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Masataka Ohta
- IPv6 DNS resolvers issue (Re: Why have we gotten … Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: IPv6 DNS resolvers issue (Re: Why have we got… Margaret Wasserman
- Re: IPv6 DNS resolvers issue (Re: Why have we got… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: IPv6 DNS resolvers issue (Re: Why have we got… Margaret Wasserman
- Re: IPv6 DNS resolvers issue (Re: Why have we got… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: IPv6 DNS resolvers issue (Re: Why have we got… shogunx
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? Lisa Dusseault
- Re: Why have we gotten away from running code? JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- RE: Why have we gotten away from running code? Eric Burger