RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP list]
Dean Anderson <dean@av8.com> Mon, 26 September 2005 19:08 UTC
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Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:08:39 -0400
From: Dean Anderson <dean@av8.com>
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Cc: Nicholas Staff <nick.staff@comcast.net>, ietf@ietf.org, 'David Kessens' <david.kessens@nokia.com>, 'IESG' <iesg@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP list]
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First, remember that Bill Strahm is a working group chair who doesn't believe he has to either 1) interact with IETF participants, or 2) not defame IETF participants in his official duties. He thinks its perfectly OK for Rob Austein of ISC to use his IETF position to defame Av8 Internet: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, bill wrote: > As a working group chair - I would refuse an e-mail account that I am > not allowed to spam control on my own terms. > > Before long these published email addresses would become spam sponges - > and completely worthless (or expensive timewise to correctly filter > > Bill The IETF email lists and other accounts seem not to have this problem. Bill Strahm should also be removed as a WG chair for refusing to perform his duties as a WG Chair according to the IETF rules. On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 bill@strahm.net wrote: > Nicholas Staff wrote: > > If so are you telling me that I have to be afraid of ever voicing a > > complaint or problem to the IESG because an AD can use that as a reason for > > retribution? > The way I see it - the answer is, under normal circumstances NO. However, > in the history of the IETF there have been several cases where people go > out of their way to send unwarranted complaints to various ADs/IESG/IAB > with unwarranted claims. > > If you were to do this more than a few times... Well, lets just say > crying wolf once isn't a foul - but after a couple more times the town > won't come out to see if there is a wolf in the pasture. I haven't seen very many unwarranted claims, outside of Kessens instant claim, of course. There are few precedents for that kind of abuse. However, the abuse documented by myself and others is pretty plainly abuse: Schoolyard-level name-calling, publishing unsubscription addresses and such are plainly abuse. Professional dishonesty [that is to say, denying proper credit, or crediting someone else improperly, or reporting falsely and disparagingly on the contents of a document one hasn't read] is plainly abusive. Defamation is plainly abusive. Unjustified threats to suppress valid technical criticism is a bit more sophisticated. I can't think of another case similar to that. But of course, we can figure out if my technical criticism is justified, and if it is, it completely undermines the credibility of Kessens' complaint. And in this case the answer is easy to find. Simply answer these questions: 1. Does Anycast Extension work with fine grained per packet load splitting as described by RFC1812 and as implemented and documented for example in Cisco PPLB on various Cisco routers? If the answer to the above question is "No", then Dean Anderson, Dan Bernstein, and Iljitsch van Beijnum are right, and ISC is wrong. On two Working Groups, no one has claimed that the answer is "Yes". The opposing arguments generally either claim that PPLB is impossible (easily refuted), or that the Anycast Extension works with course grained load balancing (which doesn't answer the question and isn't "Yes"). 2. Has the IETF approved the Anycast Extension? The answer is plainly "No". There is no RFC and no approval. This is plainly found in IETF records. 3. Does ISC F Root operational deployment of the Anycast Extension comply with RFC2870? There is a technical standard for Root Server operation. There are technically unambiguous ways to determine compliance with RFC 2870. Since there is no IETF approval of the Anycast Extension, and since this Anycast Extension can't work in general for those users that exercise fine grained load splitting according to RFC1812, a Root DNS server with this extension cannot meet the requirements of RFC2870 Section 2.6. So, the answer to question 3 is "No". Therefore, this unapproved extension should not be deployed on Root Nameservers, and ISC should not be encouraging root server operators to do so by telling people it is safe, approved, or "uncontroversial". And Therefore the following are true: 1) my criticism is valid 2) Kessens' threat is plainly inappropriate 3) My complaint about Kessens threat is substantiated There is no case where Kessens complaint in retaliation to my administrative complaint of his threat is justified. This is because even if I and the others were wrong in our criticism, I am still allowed to complain about the threat. There is no case where Kessens is allowed to retaliate for my complaint. Second, my criticism of ISC F Root operation is well-justified, footnoted, and technical. And it also has the characteristic of being correct and substantiated. But the point of posting any technical criticism is to discuss the issues. A well-justified, footnoted criticism could possibly turn out to be wrong. But even if some such criticism was subsequently found wrong, it is still inappropriate to threaten a well-formed criticism. Thats just part of discussion. Kessens' involvement in this discussion is because he doesn't want ANY criticism of a particular group. A group that is being inappropriately protected by members in the IETF leadership. This protection is well-documented in the unchecked abuse that has been conducted and reported by several people. But there has also been abuse of Dan Bernstein after posting on the topic of the Anycast Extension as well. Bernstein's email address was posted in violation of IETF rules. This shows that it isn't just Dean Anderson being attacked, but a certain group being protected. Kessens is supposed to promote IETF interests in his position as Area Director. The IETF leadership, the IESG, the A.D.s, and the WG chairs are also supposed to act in the IETF interests and uphold the rules of the IETF. The management of an organization has a legal obligation to uphold its rules and act in the organizations' interests, rather than their personal interests. In this case, the rules are written down, and clear. Dean Anderson Av8 Internet, Inc -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Nick Staff
- RE: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Brian E Carpenter
- [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP list] David Kessens
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Nicholas Staff
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Steven M. Bellovin
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Nicholas Staff
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Dean Anderson
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Dean Anderson
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… bill
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Nick Staff
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… David Kessens
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Tim Bray
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Nick Staff
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Dave Crocker
- RE: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Dean Anderson
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Dean Anderson
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Dean Anderson
- RE: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Dean Anderson
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Steven M. Bellovin
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Nick Staff
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Wijnen, Bert (Bert)
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Nick Staff
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… John Leslie
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Nick Staff
- delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplinary p… Dave Crocker
- Procedures for the IETF list (RE: [dean@av8.com: … Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… C. M. Heard
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Robert Elz
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… wayne
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Bill Sommerfeld
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Stephen Sprunk
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… usphoenix
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Nick Staff
- RE: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Nick Staff
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Dean Anderson
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Dean Anderson
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Dean Anderson
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Kevin Loch
- Anycast DNS [some tech] was RE: [dnsop] [dean@av8… Dean Anderson
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Michael Thomas
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Scott W Brim
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Dave Crocker
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Alexis Turner
- RE: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Thomas Gal
- RE: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Thomas Gal
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… grenville armitage
- RE: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Thomas Gal
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Dave Crocker
- RE: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Nick Staff
- Minority opinions [Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanageme… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Dean Anderson
- RE: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Dean Anderson
- Re: Minority opinions [Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismana… JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- RE: Minority opinions [Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismana… Thomas Gal
- RE: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Nick Staff
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… grenville armitage
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Theodore Ts'o
- RE: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Nick Staff